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cjustice
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Posted: Tue Sep 26th, 2006 08:05 am |
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CRIMINOLOGY 112 (PROFESSIONALISM IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE)
Online child predators are a serious concern for out society. Technology has opened up new venues for criminals to cast a wider net for victims, exchange information about committing crimes, given them a cloak of anonymity and caused serious jurisdictional and expertise problems for criminal justice practitioners. One attempt to fill “cyber void” in the criminal justice system has been by volunteers working through http://www.perverted-justice.com. Essentially, the volunteers pretend to be children and respond to men sometimes engage in sexual conversation, photograph exchange, webcam use and even arranging meets. While PeeJ (as they call themselves) has cooperated with law enforcement, one of their stated functions is explained by the FAQs:
“The followup community is a section of our forums where volunteers from all over the nation comb the internet and database records for as much information on the people we find as possible. Once the person is identified, the volunteers direct themselves to expose these people offline, for their online actions. It makes the internet real and the crimes there tangible, when wannabe pedophiles are exposed offline for their acts online. The community can do as much or as little followup as they want. Some choose to distribute fliers, some choose to call neighbors, some prefer calling employers. Followup is what you make of it, so long as you don't try to make violence or harassment out of it as such actions violate Followup Community rules.” (http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?pg=faq#2)
Perverted-justice.com is not without their critiques, ““We are simply concerned parents, computer experts, students, activists, and primarily, very concerned citizens. We strongly believe in the concept of the rule of law, and do not believe ANY group, regardless of the evil they purport to combat, is justified in trampling the rule of law by the use of intimidation, public humiliation and harassment. We mean to see it stopped.” (http://corrupted-justice.com/about.html)
Also, read:
http://www.radaronline.com/features/2006/09/strange_bedfellows.php
http://www.ethicsscoreboard.com/list/dateline.html
Visited the websites, pay special attention to the back and forth comments between the two groups. Also, read the online articles. Consider the following:
1. If law enforcement officers used PJ tactics would it be considered “noble cause” misconduct.
2. Should organized volunteer groups come under the same Constitutional and ethical standards as criminal justice practitioners?
3. If volunteers regularly work with law enforcement, do they become adjunct to law enforcement and then, perhaps, should they be held to the same constitutional and ethical standards? You may want to research how and when someone becomes a law enforcement agent?
4. Do certain types of crimes and criminals diminish the need for the rule of law?
5. Can you describe the tension between morals, values and ethics? Or, between the differing morals, values and ethics? Where do the two groups share similar values, morals and ethics? Where do they diverge?
Recall that your assignment is to post at least one original thought and respond to a classmate. Also, although this is an open source forum, and other people may respond, this is an important issue and a scholarly, respectful tone is required.
Last edited on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 08:06 am by cjustice
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Crim112marissa
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Posted: Wed Sep 27th, 2006 08:23 pm |
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| I think that The Perverted preditors online site was entertaining to read, yet Is it really ethical... in a sense the public should be aware of what is going on online and realize to protect children to that exposure, yet at the smae time it's unethical because it really not applying to the Justice system because all the information they catch these pedophiles with is not admissable in court. With the people that catch pedaphiles online and in the manner they do it in is not what a Police officer's standards should be .. Police officers should not be tricking people to get them caught to the extent of the how its operated online, i realize that there are things that Police officers do to possibly get a confession or catch them something something more serious than weed , so a police officer may let them go and keep an eye on them and catch them with something more serious.. and I don't think thats unethical ... but there are conflicting issues that go along with that, it's wring to lie but for the good of everybody should you stretch the truth?
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crim112Brehm
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Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 06:43 pm |
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I don't believe a lot of the ways that things are handled in these situations are correct. This Erck guy I really do believe has some problems. He has to understand being in the business that he is in the he is going to have enemies he is going to have threats and heters, and people trying to make his life miserable that's what you are doing to them so what do you expect. So of course they are going to come after him. So why would you act like a woman on line to get back at him. To me it was an inmature move.
I think there is a limit that perverted justice needs to have. Yes it is great what they are doing but no they shouldn't have people call and harass them. If they get arrested they get punished the town will find out. Don't push farther go to the next child predator instead of telling people to harass the same one.
I think that the police could do great things with this system but i also think they need to be very careful i think it will be verytricky they shouldn't harass them or flaunt who they caught.
Dateline i think the first time had a good idea. They in my mind let parents know what is going on,, on the computer. IT was a warning. Know that it's on every saturday it's more like ratings. Money embarassing for the criminal. Yes i understand he has done something wrong. but he has gotten caught, he will get punished, and thats that. Move on. I think parents need to take more control and perverted justice needs to calm down some.
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Crim112Gagnon
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Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 11:16 pm |
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I think organized volunteer groups should come under the same Constitutional and ethical standards because they are still people living in this country, and attempting to act in similar ways. Everyone participating in doing this should come under the same laws and guidelines, otherwise we have no point in having them in the firstplace. I don't think specific crimes/criminals diminish the law, but they can decrease immediate necessity of it.
I like one of the quotes from PeeJ, "We work with police on a near-daily basis. If it weren't legal, at some point, we probably would have been arrested." They seem to recognize that their work is along the fine line between legal and illegal, and they're are just glad to be on the opposite side.
I can understand Corrupted-Justice's point of view, but there are not enough police officers to comat all the pedophiles in the country. PeeJ's involvement is attempting to lessen the department's caseload. Both groups want pedophiles away from children, they just want it done in very different ways.
Corrupted-Justice quote: "We believe in using law enforcement to handle the prosecution of these things. Perverted-Justice is not law enforcement."
I agree with Marissa about "I think that The Perverted preditors online site was entertaining to read" despite its extremist nature.
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Monique22
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Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 01:25 am |
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This is a dynamic ethical issue that can be argued for either side; however I favor goals of the Perverted Justice organization. The fact that there are individuals from the ages of 25-60 years old that feel it is ok to try and meet with 10-15 year old children is unethical. Majority of these pedophiles want to meet with these adolescents who in my opinion will probably commit illegal acts such as abduction or rape. Since this organization is a volunteered group I feel they must really believe in their goal of finding users in chartrooms with these predatory tendencies towards children. The counterargument of this organization is the public humiliation and harassment the chartroom members receive. I feel that the use of sexual content and pursuit of children by adults is ethically wrong and if carried out illegally wrong. I feel dishonesty is fine in this case since the primary goal is for the protection of children. In response to Crim112Marissa’s post, I disagree with her opinion against police officers tricking perpetrators. I feel it is always ok for police officers to trick suspects because if you are innocent you have nothing to hide. If you are guilty than this is simply a strategy used to see that justice is served.
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Crim112Bates
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Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 02:49 am |
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If law enforcement officers used the tactics of PJ, I think it would not only be considered noble cause misconduct, but it could be considered entrapment as well. Many of the targets of perverted justice may not be predators as PJ convinces themselves, but stupid men who fall into a trap.
I don’t necessarily believe that such groups should fall under the same standards as law enforcement officers. However these groups should not be able to take justice into their own hands. That is why we have law enforcement in the first place.
If volunteers regularly work with law enforcement, I believe they should be held to the same standards. I believe that they should have to follow the same process that officers do. If someone commits a crime, it has to be proven in a court of law, judged by a jury. An officer would not call the person’s job and wife and say, “we think this man may have killed someone.”
I don’t think certain crimes and criminals diminish the need for the rule of law. The legal process is in place so we do not have chaos and vigilante justice that once existed.
Ethics is the study of right and wrong actions. Law is based on ethics. Values are your beliefs and can be ethical or unethical. Morals relates to principles of good and evil. Both groups think that preying on children is wrong so they share the same morals and values. Where they disagree is when it comes to ethics.
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Crim112Bates
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Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 02:53 am |
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| I really like the quote that Crim112Gagnon used, that if what PJ was doing wasn't legal the police would have arrested them. I think they do know that their actions are questionable, but the fact that Dateline and law enforcement works with them, encourages their behavior.
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rosacrim112
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Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 02:48 am |
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| After reading these two article i began to remember how disgusting the world has become. Until when is society going to change for the better, i guess i better not hold my breath. i agree with perverted-justice to a certain extent. i think that pretending to be a child is a good way of catching predators but i do not agree with actual pictures of children being used as bait. this i find unethical and disturbing. sexual predators are to my opinion the lowest form of any type of animal and one should what ever it takes to catch them all but i there should be limitations. the world of the Internet has opened doors for many forms of crimes and it is sad to see how individuals will take advantage of that. i hate to say this but if we set limitations on officers and we hold them to a higher standard; this should be the same rules should apply to groups who take justice into their own hands. they to should be held responsible for their action. this is to some extent a form of noble cause.
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Crim112marissa
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Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 05:18 am |
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| Monique, I realize that Police officers have to use strategies to catch the bad guy, but there are certian moral and ethical standards that a police officer is held to so theres that expectancy to not lie although i do agree that a police officer should try to get the bad guy the best way they can ... but there are certain strategies that a police officer can do that don't break any morals or confidential issues.... but i agree that if thier gulty you can see right through thier lies.
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crim112alberto
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Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 09:27 am |
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I believe dateline NBC could have eliminated most ethical concerns if they had chosen to merely aquire the basis of the idea from Perverted Justice and work with proffessionals within the American criminal justice system instead of the unscreened volunteers already provided. Catching would-be sex offenders under the guidence and experience of sworn-in officers embraces a sound foundation for higher ethical standards. Continuing in the latter satisfies basic human rights gaurrenteed within the U.S Constitution, uninvolved in the creators personal vandetta's. Von Ercks character must be questioned because his idea for the vigilante group seems to be concieved from hate and not of goodness or righteousness, much the same as another vigilante group called "minute men" patrolling along the U.S./Mexico border, claiming to want to help secure the region from dangerous unarmed immigrants from Latin-America, while fully armed and unregulated. In both cases, the element most valueable is the attention generated from these groups that may lead to better governmental regulation for problems that make many americans feel insecure. I agree with Crim112gagnon when she says that organized volunteer groups should follow the same costitutional and ethical standards as our law enforcement is intended to be.
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Crim112Robinson
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Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 05:47 pm |
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1. If law enforcement officers used PJ tactics would it be considered “noble cause” misconduct?
I think that if the officers used the PJ tactics that it would be considered noble cause misconduct. I also think that it could fall under the category of entrapment as well. I am for PJ, but it seems like they are just trying to “trap” some of these men into things that they might not actually act on.
2.Should organized volunteer groups come under the same Constitutional and ethical standards as criminal justice practitioners?
I think that they shouldn’t have to fall under the same category as criminal justice practitioners but I think that they should have some type of ethical standard that is similar to the Criminal Justice system. These volunteer groups shouldn’t be able to take the law into their own hands and run freely around their town. They should have guidelines to follow!
3. If volunteers regularly work with law enforcement, do they become adjunct to law enforcement and then, perhaps, should they be held to the same constitutional and ethical standards? You may want to research how and when someone becomes a law enforcement agent?
This question is similar to question number two. In this case though, I feel that if volunteers are regularly working with law enforcement then they should fall under the same constitutional and ethical standards. I think that people who regularly work with law enforcement are going to need to follow the same standards because they might cross the line one day.
4.Do certain types of crimes and criminals diminish the need for the rule of law?
I don’t think that certain types of crimes and criminals diminish the need for rule of law. I think that they laws were set for a reason. If we abolish those laws, then there will be a huge problem in our society.
5.Can you describe the tension between morals, values and ethics? Or, between the differing morals, values and ethics? Where do the two groups share similar values, morals and ethics? Where do they diverge?
When people choose what is right or wrong, this is their ethics. Our values are based on our beliefs and we have the right to choose whether they are right or wrong. Good and evil relates to our everyday morals. Our society has created laws based on our ethics. I think the tension between morals, values, and ethics comes from different peoples beliefs on what is right or wrong. There are many different cultures that believe in what they want and other cultures perceive it as wrong. Both groups (PJ and Corrupted Justice) think that preying on children is wrong so they share the same morals and values. But these two groups are disagreeing on their ethics! They seem to diverge at the privacy of the wannabe pedophiles. CJ keeps the information private and PJ gives it out to the “world.”
After reviewing both of the websites, I still feel that PJ is doing a good job at catching predators. But I feel that they should change their policy and keep things anonymous for the wannabes. They should provide the information to law enforcement and maybe have a PJ sex offender list but they shouldn’t be posting flyers and passing out information in that persons hometown, work place, etc. It crosses the line and it is very inappropriate.
If they change that “policy”, I think they might be more respected by other organizations.
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Crim112Robinson
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Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 05:49 pm |
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Crim112Bates - I like how you answered all of the questions in a neat format. But what group do you "like" better? Do you agree with what Perverted Justice is doing or do you think that Corrupted Justice has a better understanding of what is right and wrong? 
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Crim112Robinson
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Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 05:52 pm |
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| I like Rosa112Crims post. It says "i hate to say this but if we set limitations on officers and we hold them to a higher standard; this should be the same rules should apply to groups who take justice into their own hands." What is the difference between an officer and a civilian though? Should they (a volunteer) really be accountable if the organization told them to use those "tactics" to catch the predator?
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Crim112Scarbery
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Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 07:48 pm |
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After reading both of the websites, I was really surprised how passionate the two sides are about their ideas. I, personally, watched a few of those Dateline specials, and I had figured that the only people out there that opposed them would probably be the pedophiles, but I was wrong about that.
I was reading The Fresno Bee this morning and there was an article about some local men who were caught by PJ. One of these men was a technician at Fresno City College. It will be interesting to see what PJ does here locally within community.
I believe that these volunteer groups, like PJ, when working with law enforcement should come under the same Consitutional and ethical standards as those in criminal justice. When working as a team, everyone on the team should be accountable.
I do not think that certain types of crimes should diminish the rule of law. If that starts to happen, people will then start to argue on what "crimes" would fall into the category.
I believe that society feels that what PJ is doing is right, and so do I to a certain extent. There are some sick people out there that need to be caught before their actions, but I do not believe that PJ should humilate everyone they catch by telling the entire community. I do not think that PJ should receive special treatment just because they are working with NBC, law enforcement, or any other organization.
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Crim112McCoy
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Posted: Sun Oct 1st, 2006 08:24 pm |
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After reading the various websites listed I found it to be very interesting how many people are for and against the PJ website and actions.
I don't a noble cause misconduct issue would be a problem for what are of the officers doing, yes protecting the kids of today, our kids. I would not look at it as a misconduct. Yes there should be some kind of standards that organzied volunteer groups should abide by. If there are not who knows what might happen to a peson suspect of sollicting sex with a minor. If no standards are set then some people might act extremely radical and unethical.
A person becomes a law enforcement agent after either completeing a degree in the criminology field and being hired by a law enforcement agency then going through some sort of training and or attending police school of some sort. A person is not able (legally) to do anything a law enforcement officer is able to do without having one of those things that i have listed above. All a person can do is make a citizens arrest or contact that proper authorities. A person is not just given authority to do something unless there are certain circumstances involved, and in some cases it is ok for them to act like law enforcement officers.
No. Any and all types of crimes and criminals do not diminish the need for rule of law. It just doesn't make a difference. It all depends on the issue at hand to whether or not two groups share the same value's, morals, and ethics. Some groups think its alright for minor to help in the apprehension of criminals when sex is the crime at hand, others would disagree. Thinking that minors should not be invovled. Other groups might feel that minors can be used at only a certain point and not used later on while others think they shouldn't be invovled at all and others again that they should be invovled the whole time.
Everyone has their own views and opinions when it comes to the use of minors. Its wrong in many cases but then its sometimes the only thing that will work in other cases. It is a major toss up.
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Crim112Abruzzo
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 01:08 am |
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I believe that it should be considered "noble cause" misconduct. I believe that something definitely needs to be done to stop the sexual predators online that are targeting several young boys and young girls. Yes, if organized groups are willing to help people whats the difference from the criminal justice practitioners who are also willing to help these children that are being victimized. A law enforcement agent becomes a true agent after completing the school and training and becomes qualified to do that job only. I believe that volunteers should not be held at the same level, but they are needed for undercover work online to catch the sexual predators. I believe that it depends on the severity of the crime. Obviously child abuse and murder are going to strike people differently. All people are bothered by them, but one might emotionally affect someone more than another person. Well, personally my morals will be different than everyone else's morals. Peoples' morals, values, and ethics are constantly clashing and I believe that to be a leading cause of crime between people today. I watched the Dateline show on sexual predators the other night. I was very shocked to see the people that were committing this crime. I found this documentary very shocking and was surprised to see the outcome of this show.
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CRIM112cordero
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 03:00 am |
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The tactics that PJ use are similar of those that law enforcement use to catch a criminal and or drug bust. No matter how you do it you have to be undercover. I believe all tactics are of noble cause because of the fact you have to use such tactics to catch a predator in action. I also think that those who volunteer should be held under the same constitutional rights, because you are dealing with the law and everyone should follow the same procedures and policies. For example, a court advocate, they are not real lawyers or police officers but they go under a forty hour training and then they can go to court with the victim and help them. I'm sure volunteers for other things in the criminal justice field under go training and should be held responsible for their actions. Everyone should be held under the same law because your a person representing that criminal justice field.
All crimes and criminals need the law more, so they can be stopped and prevented from future occurrences.
They both have their differences. One group likes the idea of exposing the predators and showing them on national television. the others feel like its wrong because you are using a rented house in a neighborhood to bring these predators there. they feel unsafe and that its wrong. The group that is negative towards it feels like they are just creating the event for show instead of just reporting it and keeping it to themselves. Everyone should know about these kinds of people and what they are capable of doing to young kids and teens. They also feel like they are unethical because of the fact its using the tactic of embarrassment to the person. They do also believe that they are unprofessional and do not meet the standards of a real law enforcement agent.
The other group however feels like its okay because of the fact that they are catching the predator and helping law enforcement with the act as well. I feel like this website and the show are good tactics used to catch them and put the away. It's helping prevent such abuses and sexual in counters with young kids and adults.
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CRIM112cordero
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 03:05 am |
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| Like Abruzzo's post... I do agree that if an organizational wants to help and they have the tactics and resources then so be it. They can provide resources and help as much any law enforcement agent can provide as well. I also agree with you on that fact that once volunteers go their that certain type of training, then they are qualified as well to do that job and should be held under the same laws and policies.
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CRIM112Reynolds
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 03:37 am |
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After reading all the material provided, there were many interesting points made by both sides of this issue. I believe that if law enforcement officers use tactics used by Perverted Justice should be considered noble conduct not noble misconduct. I believe setting up scenarios based on information provided over the Internet isn't any different then setting up drug stings or other crimes of that nature. I believe that since the Internet brings about a new wave of crime, critics easily try to attack the tactics because nothing has been set in stone.
I don't believe that volunteer groups should come under same Constitutional ethical standards unless they are working hand in hand with law enforcement. The "Dateline" specials show hand in hand coordination with a volunteer group, and I think Perverted Justice should follow the same rules as law enforcement. I believe this because it makes it that much harder for criminal defense attorneys to find holes in the prosecutions cases. At the same time, if the volunteer group were acting alone and just wanted to expose the name of a pedophile to the public(Perverted Justice before NBC got a hold of them), then their rules would be different.
Both groups should ultimately want to end Internet crime. More specifically predators preying on young children. These two organizations are getting caught up in the formalities of the process by which these criminals are being caught. This idea of Perverted Justice is a great idea, setting up stings to catch a predators of children. If law enforcement would take over this concept by themselves and not work with a "volunteer organization," I believe the tensions would subside. Morally, the right thing to do is catch men/women who prey on children, thats the bottom line. Ethically, catching the criminals is where the problem lies. The ethical gap between who exposes the predator and who is arresting the criminal will only be closed if the law enforcement agency takes over ALL responsibility.
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CRIM112Reynolds
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 03:42 am |
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| I agree with Scarbary's post about the community believes that PJ is doing the right thing. Definitely exposing pedophiles to the public is important. People need to know who lives around them. Not knowing is never an excuse and if their is a volunteer group willing to expose these kinds of people to the public, then so be it. They're doing the community a great service. But if someone opposes there work, then there needs to be room for criticism. Attacking members of both opposing and supporting sides should not be the case. Constructive criticism should only be allowed.
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