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Crim112McCoy
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 05:02 am |
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| Like Abruzzo and Cordero I agree that if a organization has the resources to go after or assist in the capturing of a criminal espeically when it involves a sexual crime is awesome because a sexual crime is the lowest crime out there. The only issue I have with a organization going after criminals is how they will treat the suspect or criminal when they come in contact them. The person is a criminal yes but they have rights as well, which if an organization that violates those will no long be able to assist or go after criminals.
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Crim112DeRose
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 12:54 pm |
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The end goal of PeeJ is for a good cause, but they frequently cross the line, for example, when they harrass and humiliate these sexual predators after exposing them. Police could not use the same tactics as PeeJ because it was stated that PeeJ often crosses ethical boundries so much that a potential case would get thrown out in court.
I believe organized volunteer groups should come under the same constitutional and ethical standards. PeeJ in many cases attempts to work hand-in-hand with law enforcement and in essence are doing investigative work through the whole process of exposing these people. They need to have limits just as law enforcement does.
Morally, PeeJ is a good operation because it exists to catch sexual predators who pray on children. Furthermore, by humiliating the predators they expose, PeeJ more than likely succeeds in deterring those criminals as well as other potential ones from committing anymore of these acts. The way in which PeeJ exposes and humiliates is not right from an ethical point of view. They are helping to protect our youth, but must also follow guidelines and get actual law enforcement involved to do investigating as well.
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Crim112DeRose
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 01:05 pm |
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| In response to Monique's post, I too favor the goals of PeeJ. They are not only working to protect young children, but also to rid society of some sick, sick people. I also feel that dishonesty is okay in these cases since it means protecting youth. If only PeeJ could tone it down a bit as to not include the pestering phone calls and constant harrassment. I can also see a counterargument for this, being that this will keep those predators from committing the same acts again.
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112Ayon
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 11:41 pm |
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| I think the efforts that PJ is putting forth are much needed but are a little too extreme. That is why I think it is "noble cause" misconduct. I think these guys deserve to be caught but am not so sure they deserve the public humiliation and accusations that come along with that because we just dont know what they would have done. I think citizens should not take the law into their own hands because who knows what would have really happened. I think the people working with PJ should be monitored closely to make sure they dont cross any bounderies in terms of legal issues. I think these guys (PJ) should be held to the same standards as law enforcement agents. I can certainly see where they are coming from but disagree with their means of carrying out the law. The rule of law should be the same no matter what type of crime is commited. I do think, however, that both these sites share common morrals. They just dont share the same ethics in the way they conduct their business. Their differences come from diverging viewpoints on what is fair and fitting for certain crimes, in this case potential child molestars.
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112Ayon
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 11:49 pm |
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| I agreed with most of what you had to say in your argument. Our viowpoints are very similar on this topic because we both think these means are a little too extreme on the part of PJ. I noticed that you also thought PJ would serve as a deterrant for sex offenders in the future. I thought your response was clear and of much validity.
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Crim112Scarbery
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Posted: Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 06:06 am |
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Ayon- I think you make some very good points in your post. I would have to agree with you on all of them. I also like your idea of watching PJ from a legal eye to see that they make sure they do not cross any boundaries.
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crim112Brehm
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Posted: Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 03:15 pm |
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| I agree With Derose PeeJ crosses the boundaries. They do have their hearts in the right place but when they try to expose and harass the criminal to the public the have gone to far. I think that you are on the right track
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CRIM112MARIN
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Posted: Wed Oct 4th, 2006 06:03 pm |
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I feel PeeJ has great intentions but are approaching the issue inappropiately. Law enforcement agencies have been developed to combat this particular problem. It appears PeeJ is attempting to take matters into their own hands but have no jurisdiction nor legal grounds. If law enforcement adopts PeeJ practices it would be "noble misconduct." Although, I foresee an enormous amount of legal problems that will arise if it happens.
Organizers and volunteers of interest groups should be held to the constitution and ethical standards. Individuals who are not in law enforcement should no be given opportunities that legal practitoners do not possess. Organizations that work closely with law enforcement should not hold any legal power. For example, I would find it more accepting if PeeJ would inform law enforcement and gather information on potential predators but not attempt to contact the predator directly or their employer. I feel there should be a disparity between who has the authority to enforce the law.
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CRIM112MARIN
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Posted: Wed Oct 4th, 2006 06:06 pm |
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| Ayon, I do agree with majority of your thoughts and feelings regarding this issue. It is "noble conduct" but there needs to be a line drawn between who is capable of bringing punishment to the offender. It would be too confusing if organizations such as PeeJ have the same jurisdiction and authority as trained law enforcement officials.
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CRIM112VANG
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Posted: Wed Oct 4th, 2006 08:16 pm |
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I think that what Perverted Justice does is for the better of the community. They are here to serve and protect the community just as the police officers are, but in a different way. They are a team, and each department has its job to contribute to the capture of these online child predators. There are three steps as seen on television: 1) PJ lures them, 2) Dateline and NBC are there to film, question, and exploit them, and 3) the police are there to do the arresting. I think that it is very ethical with the actions they are taking to catch these men. They have caught many potential pedophiles and will catch more to come. I strongly agree with their tactics, on how they kick it up a notch by exploiting these men on national television. I believe the participation of Dateline and NBC was a very wise decision no matter how much money was involved. It wasn’t the money in the first place to begin with that motivated PJ to do what they were doing. They were sick of the fact that nothing was being done about older men soliciting children online. The money is part of the reward for all their hard work and achievements. We are talking about the safety of our children! It is shocking to know that these men are our neighbors, teachers, lawyers, church leaders, and the list goes on. If anything is unethical, it’s what these men are doing to our children. The humiliation that these men go through on public television is a very effective way of prevention. It puts fear in people and therefore will diminish this type of crime.
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CRIM112VANG
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Posted: Wed Oct 4th, 2006 08:31 pm |
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There is no better way to put it Monique, as you said, "I feel that the use of sexual content and pursuit of children by adults is ethically wrong and if carried out illegally wrong." All PJ is doing is protecting our children from harm such as rape, abduction, molestation, torture, murder, and etc. I feel that if it takes dishonesty to bring a person to justice, then by any means do it if it's for the better.
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112YGonzales
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Posted: Thu Oct 5th, 2006 12:46 am |
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1. If law enforcement officers used PJ tactics would it be considered “noble cause” misconduct.
I don't think that it should be a misconduct. cops lie when they give interigations. I think in this case that what ever has to be done and writen online to catch a preditor it should be done.
2. Should organized volunteer groups come under the same Constitutional and ethical standards as criminal justice practitioners?
I think so. Because if they didn't have a ethical model to follow then they would cause caouse and might not be able to handle them sevles in a cercumstance that might anger them. Volunteer groups should also have traning in knowing how to handle situations they may come in contact with. Every one deals diffrently with situations especialy if a person they know has been effected by people like thees men and women
3. If volunteers regularly work with law enforcement, do they become adjunct to law enforcement and then, perhaps, should they be held to the same constitutional and ethical standards? You may want to research how and when someone becomes a law enforcement agent?
Their are manny savilians that work with law enforcement officers and they keep their savilian satus. I think in some cases such as under cover type thing then the savilian should be and will need to be given the ethics of policing. They should also know how fare they can go meaning acting out with out supervision of the police agency.
4. Do certain types of crimes and criminals diminish the need for the rule of law?
I think so if we had no crime then we would not have the law Right?
5. Can you describe the tension between morals, values and ethics? Or, between the differing morals, values and ethics? Where do the two groups share similar values, morals and ethics? Where do they diverge?
Yes I can. Morals is what you feel is bad or good to you, as for Values it's some thing that you up hold in life and in society. Ethics is the right and wrong that society tells you. more like some things are not appropreate to do in front of strangers, co-worker, and family. they share the similarity of the mind they all make you think and question your actions.
Last edited on Thu Oct 5th, 2006 12:55 am by 112YGonzales
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112YGonzales
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Posted: Thu Oct 5th, 2006 12:54 am |
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| I agree with you I didn't see it that way. I guess this is why we do this. well I felt similar to your posting. you put good thought in to your response. I can see how an organization with no training can cause major law suits. that is why I suggested that the need to have served how ever manny hours of training on what ever it is that they are volunteering for.
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112Lopez
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Posted: Thu Oct 5th, 2006 02:29 am |
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1. Yes, because the law enforcement are not allow to trap potential criminals through ways of entrapment, which many of the pedophiles are encouraged to by the PJ tactics.
2. No because they are just regular citizens not sworn in law enforcement agents. But if the volunteers work with law enforcement on a permanent or long time I feel they should.
3. In this particular case I do feel that if volunteers that work on a daily basis with law enforcement they should be held to the same standards of law enforcement agencies. Because the volunteering ends up changing to a job and the basis of it is to capture pedophiles or potential pedophiles which there is an invisible hand of law enforcement interaction through the PJ group. So it makes sense that they be held t the same standards if the volunteer work is on a long or permanent basis.
4. No, the rule of law is not diminished by certain types of crimes or criminals. The rule of law should always and continue to be carried out without bending to different or certain types of crimes. If a crime is committed, the law set in place should be appropriate with crime and punishment.
5. The tension between morals, values, and ethics, among these two groups vary. First, the PJ morals, values and ethics are plan and simple, they want pedophiles or potential pedophiles caught, captured, and arrested to make this world safer for the public. People in general hold morals and values different from one another, in this case the Opposition is also in agreement of the capturing of pedophiles, but differ in the tactics and techniques used to capture pedophiles. The opposition's main argument is that it should be law enforcements role in the capture of pedophiles and not by trickery by a volunteer based group by entrapment. I believe that peoples general views of morals and values is that the persons intension for capturing criminals must be good and legal. This is where the PJ and Opposition group are in conflict.
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112Lopez
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Posted: Thu Oct 5th, 2006 02:37 am |
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| I have agree with you Crim112Vang, that pedophiles need to be captured, but I disagree with the fact that rules and laws need to be broken to capture these potential criminals. If that was the case then there would be a need for twice the amount of prisons then there are. There are laws, rules, and regulations to ensure that every american citizen are protected and have rights even criminals.
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CRIM112VANG
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Posted: Thu Oct 5th, 2006 03:43 am |
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| I'm curious about what rules and laws are being broken that you are talking about? I believe I talked about being dishonest to catch criminals; how PJ poses as young girls to catch pedophiles and others who intend to commit crimes against children.
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crim112PEREZ
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Posted: Thu Oct 5th, 2006 04:16 am |
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1. If law enforcement officers used PJ tactics would it be considered “noble cause” misconduct?
No, I do not think that if law enforcement officers used PJ tactics that it would be considered noble cause misconduct. Regardless of how this ‘sting’ is going about, the intentions of the pedophiles are still present, just as the intention of a prostitute is present as she’s approaching the window of the car on the corner. She is still soliciting, even if she has not been ‘caught in the act’…. the same with these Internet lurkers.
2.Should organized volunteer groups come under the same Constitutional and ethical standards as criminal justice practitioners?
I agree with bates; no, organized volunteer groups should not have to follow the same constitutional standards as law enforcement, yet they should not be able to take justice into their own hands. Now, this is unless they are working directly with law enforcement such as PJ, then yes, they should have to follow the same constitutional standards as law enforcement.
3.If volunteers regularly work with law enforcement, do they become adjunct to law enforcement and then, perhaps, should they be held to the same constitutional and ethical standards? You may want to research how and when someone becomes a law enforcement agent?
If volunteers are working regularly with law enforcement, yes, they should hold the same standards as law enforcement as I stated above. Since these volunteers do work directly with law enforcement and are very much involved, they should hold the same standards as any member of law enforcement.
4. Do certain types of crimes and criminals diminish the need for the rule of law?
No, a crime is a crime, and a criminal is a criminal. The law is in place, and there is no reason, or need to diminish the need for the rule of law.
5. Can you describe the tension between morals, values and ethics? Or, between the differing morals, values and ethics? Where do the two groups share similar values, morals and ethics? Where do they diverge?
Both of these groups are doing what they feel is right, moral, or ethical. Both of these groups are against pedophiles, or ‘child abuse’, however, these two groups differ on what the proper ways are of dealing with these pedophiles or child abusers. I see both groups as being notable and respectful. I have seen some PJ episodes and they are very intriguing, yet at the same time it is understandable for corrupted justice to feel that the way PJ goes about catching these criminals as being immoral.
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crim112PEREZ
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Posted: Thu Oct 5th, 2006 04:20 am |
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as gonzales said :
I don't think that it should be a misconduct. cops lie when they give interigations. I think in this case that what ever has to be done and writen online to catch a preditor it should be done.
very straight forwardly put, but nice. I completely agree that it should not be misconduct. Regardless of the humiliation, these people are still preditors and need to serve justice.
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Crim112Abruzzo
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Posted: Sun Oct 8th, 2006 04:10 am |
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| I agree with Crim112Vang and several other posts that "they are here to serve and protect the community just as the police officers are, but in a different way." If they can stop this problem than we should let them try.
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Crim112 Martinez
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Posted: Wed Oct 11th, 2006 06:29 pm |
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| I agree that PJ website in a cetain way acept that they are inside the boundaries of what is legal, yet in a certain what they are doing may be illegal because of the harrasement side.
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